Re: [Fwd: Re: [PHP-DEV] Renaming namespaces to packages]

Stanislav Malyshev wrote:

Wikipedia also define the term MVC. But alas, that is a conceptual definition, not blueprints for implementation.

Who cares about the implementation? It's still MVC. So let's implement MVC and call it "distributed enterprise messaging" and then let's spend next 2 years explaining that it was really MVC that we meant.

My point is simply that there is a different between the concept and someones interpretation of the concept that influences an actual implementation. MVC, although overly used in these web 2.1-rc4 days, is not a product, or even an implementation.. Its a pattern for development and a concept. ZF-MVC is an implementation of this pattern, as is Symfony, as is RoR, as is Django. I use the concept of Namespaces to build a more OO friendly session object for Zend_Session. Which is why we have a class called Zend_Session_Namespace. Point being, its an implementation of the namespace concept within an implementation of a component in the Zend Framework.

namespaces and packages. But the general taste this will leave in peoples mouthes is package, even if it is a Grapple.

I am still waiting to know what is package? I know what is namespace - and I for everybody that doesn't know I can explain it in 2 minutes with one hand tied behind my back. But what is "package"?

PACKAGES ARE a namespace implementation with file/directory/and or other filesystem restrictions. I would go out on a limb and say that if you surveyed a large majority of languages and developers, that statement above would fit most peoples perception of "what a package is".

current implementation doesn't have braces; this (consequently) adds a

Ouch, not braces again. What is it with braces that you need them so badly? Many languages aren't using the things ever, isn't it a proof that there's life outside braces? ;)

Its not a point of needing them so badly. The point is what the lack of braces implies within the language itself. Instead of namespace scope ending at a brace, its now ending at the end OF A FILE; hence introducing a FILESYSTEM restriction. Questions: can I run an interactive php shell and define a few namespaces and classes to use in a runtime environment? Say, using, PHP_Shell in pear? Can I have more than one namespace in a single file?

library "packages". Point in case is how the ZF has used a pesudo-namespace-ing class name to accomplish the very same thing.

ZF is using Very_Very_Long_And_Very_Irritating_Class_Names because there's no choice to do otherwise. That's why we wrote namespaces - to provide this choice.

True, but we are also talking about library components that are regulated by some coding standards, specifically, the one class per file requirement. This itself is not a PHP thing, its a ZF-Coding Standards thing. Using package implies a "one namespaced package per file rule" whereas the simple term of "namespace" does not (at least to me).

+1 on package, it makes the most sense regardless of the marketing draw of "namespace" support.

Please re-read my mail on perception. "Marketing" here is just a way to say "perception" so it sounds bad to some people for some reason.

Well, you talked about sending out the press release about "PHP has namespace support!".. and that is pure marketing ;) But I agree with you in that the long term goal is about developer perception, and thats why its important to have this decided. -ralph