Re: I hope this is the last email about this :)

That was +1 for changing it to off. :) On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 09:37 PM, George Schlossnagle wrote:

+1 unless it is set as an INI_ANY, then +0. George On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 09:05 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:

Thank you for the detailed explanation, I'm sure everybody understands it now. Let's go for the voting phase. I vote we keep PHP-CLI with implicit_flush on by default. You vote against. Can we get some other votes now (not opinions, everything was already said a dozen times, just votes to get this over with). Thanks! Zeev At 15:11 25/10/2002, Yasuo Ohgaki wrote:

Zeev Suraski wrote:

At 09:15 25/10/2002, Yasuo Ohgaki wrote:

Zeev Suraski wrote:

You print something, it doesn't print out. How is it trivial to solve this? If you happen to know that there's IO buffering and that there's a function called flush() then maybe it trivial, but then there are the other million users who don't. Hence the idea of setting is to implicit flush for the masses, who not only don't know about the existence of flush(), but also don't know why it's even necessary.

Ok. If we are argue about what is mass or not Don't forget about - millions(?) of _current_ PHP users who are used to implicit_flush=off by default.

Few of them use CLI.

As I mentioned already, people are used to implicit_off=off and it's the default of other SAPIs, therefore, it's not intuitive for existing users. If we aren't care about much about existing users base, I think we should set short_tag=Off by default, but you're insisting it should be on even if much fewer people are using. I'm confused. People expects PHP/CLI behave like Apache SAPI, CGI SAPI, etc. Well, if I weren't developer and didn't know discussion, I'll certainly write bug report that implicit flush is enabled wrongly.

- millions of decent programmers who are used to _usual_ behavior.

I consider myself a decent programmer, and I also consider the need to flush explicitly extremely annoying. Moreover, many PHP programmers (if not most) aren't used to this 'usual' behavior, because they either never programmed in another language, or they still didn't bump into that specific behavior.

Don't you think flushing is needed only very limited applications? i.e. We don't write interactive CUI applications much now a days.

- millions of scripts/echo/print don't need automatic flush at all. i.e. much fewer number of script/echo/print need auto flushing.

It doesn't matter. When you're screwed by the lack of implicit flush, it's much worse than a mere slow down.

Hmm. Since console is line buffered. There aren't many thing that is missed by implicit flushing.

Please list programming languages (i.e. not shell) that do automatic/inefficient/unneeded flushing by default in program mode.

Read my fingertips - PHP IN CLI MODE. There's one, that's the only one I care about.

My point is we should learn from many smart peoples designs' of languages.

If we are argue about difficulty of flushing,

We're not. We're arguing about the obscurity of the problem.

implicit_flush=On is obscure for current users. Suppose "not flushing" is extremely obscure, but default is better to set which is better/suitable for more occasions and is better to be consistent with other SAPIs. Is this the main point of auto flushing? If there are other points, please list them. -- Yasuo Ohgaki

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