Re: I hope this is the last email about this :)

+1 FLUSH -- Maxim Maletsky maxim@php.net www.PHPBeginner.com // PHP for Beginners www.maxim.cx // my Home // my Wish List: ( Get me something! ) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/registry/2IXE7SMI5EDI3 Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote... : > Thank you for the detailed explanation, I'm sure everybody understands it now. > > Let's go for the voting phase. I vote we keep PHP-CLI with implicit_flush > on by default. You vote against. > > Can we get some other votes now (not opinions, everything was already said > a dozen times, just votes to get this over with). > > Thanks! > > Zeev > > At 15:11 25/10/2002, Yasuo Ohgaki wrote: > >Zeev Suraski wrote: > >>At 09:15 25/10/2002, Yasuo Ohgaki wrote: > >> > >>>Zeev Suraski wrote: > >>> > >>>>You print something, it doesn't print out. How is it trivial to solve > >>>>this? If you happen to know that there's IO buffering and that > >>>>there's > >>>>a function called flush() then maybe it trivial, but then there are the > >>>>other million users who don't. Hence the idea of setting is to > >>>>implicit flush for the masses, who not only don't know about the > >>>>existence of flush(), but also don't know why it's even necessary. > >>> > >>> > >>>Ok. If we are argue about what is mass or not > >>> > >>>Don't forget about > >>> > >>> - millions(?) of _current_ PHP users who are used to > >>> implicit_flush=off by default. > >> > >>Few of them use CLI. > > > >As I mentioned already, people are used to implicit_off=off and > >it's the default of other SAPIs, therefore, it's not intuitive > >for existing users. > > > >If we aren't care about much about existing users base, > >I think we should set short_tag=Off by default, but you're > >insisting it should be on even if much fewer people are > >using. I'm confused. > > > >People expects PHP/CLI behave like Apache SAPI, CGI SAPI, etc. > > > >Well, if I weren't developer and didn't know discussion, > >I'll certainly write bug report that implicit flush is enabled > >wrongly. > > > >> > >>> - millions of decent programmers who are used to _usual_ behavior. > >> > >>I consider myself a decent programmer, and I also consider the need to > >>flush explicitly extremely annoying. Moreover, many PHP programmers (if > >>not most) aren't used to this 'usual' behavior, because they either > >>never > >>programmed in another language, or they still didn't bump into that > >>specific behavior. > > > >Don't you think flushing is needed only very limited applications? > >i.e. We don't write interactive CUI applications much now a days. > > > >> > >>> - millions of scripts/echo/print don't need automatic flush at all. > >>> i.e. much fewer number of script/echo/print need auto flushing. > >> > >>It doesn't matter. When you're screwed by the lack of implicit flush, > >>it's much worse than a mere slow down. > > > >Hmm. Since console is line buffered. There aren't many thing that > >is missed by implicit flushing. > > > >> > >>>Please list programming languages (i.e. not shell) that do > >>>automatic/inefficient/unneeded flushing by default in program mode. > >> > >>Read my fingertips - PHP IN CLI MODE. There's one, that's the only one I > >>care about. > > > >My point is we should learn from many smart peoples designs' of > >languages. > > > >> > >>>If we are argue about difficulty of flushing, > >> > >>We're not. We're arguing about the obscurity of the problem. > > > >implicit_flush=On is obscure for current users. > > > >Suppose "not flushing" is extremely obscure, but default is better > >to set which is better/suitable for more occasions and is better to > >be consistent with other SAPIs. > > > >Is this the main point of auto flushing? > >If there are other points, please list them. > > > >-- > >Yasuo Ohgaki > > > > > -- > PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >