Re: Moving PHP internals to GitHub

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 8:42 PM Rowan Tommins <rowan.collins@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 12/04/2023 19:05, tag Knife wrote: > > I say this as someone who was trying to onboard themselves the other day > > (web-php and php-docs). > > The entire process is archaic and uses "tools" from 20 years ago. > > Onboarding for anything you're interested in doesn't really give a > > direction at all (unless you're a dev). > > It mostly boils down "do this, do that, after that figure it out yourself". > > > I'd like to draw attention to a non sequitur between the above, totally > valid criticism, and the below: > > > > It really shows php's age that you have to join a mailing-list to even get > > generic user support, let alone participate in development. > > > None of the above has anything to do with it being a mailing list per > se. You could have just as bad an experience trying to sign up for a web > forum, or a chat room, or something-something-blockchain-ai-javascript. > > But to repeat: the complaints about the sign-up process are totally > valid. I don't know enough about the system involved to make them > smoother, but there's no reason signing up for a mailing list can't be > as simple as enter address, confirm address, done. By all accounts, the > PHP ones are not. > > > > Look at the "Make WordPress" page compared to php's "Get > > Involved" page and > > the overall onboarding experience is so much nicer and improved. > > People can get a general idea of how teams works, their goals, who's > > leading who, > > with helpful guides and direction to get people started. > > > I agree to a point. My first impression of the Wordpress page you > mention is that it's kind of overwhelming with the number of different > teams, and it's mostly a directory of Slack channels, I think? (Hurrah, > another Slack workspace to separately sign into on every device!) A more > apt comparison is probably to > https://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php > > What is probably lacking both there and the "Get Involved" page is a > more direct statement that Internals is the central communication hub > for the project. The mailing list page describes it as "A medium volume > list for those who want to help out with the development of PHP" which > is accurate but entirely unhelpful. > > > Which brings me back to my earlier point: I wonder how much of the > reaction is really about e-mail itself, and how much is just the > documentation and sign-up forms you encounter *before* you hit the list. > Because if it's the latter, migrating the entire community to a new > platform won't help - we'll still suck at introducing anyone to that > platform - and most of what we need is someone who's good with words to > update some website copy. > > Regards, > > -- > Rowan Tommins > [IMSoP] > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > Heh, > Hurrah, > another Slack workspace to separately sign into on every device! From working at Automattic for nearly 6 years, I can say that they are indeed, a very Slack-heavy organization. They used it very well though, maybe too well ;) - Rob