Re: PHP 6.0 Wishlist

Jochem, Even though you position yourself as a 'mere mortal' developer, you happen to be subscribed on internals@. That alone makes you much more 'hardcore PHPer' than 98.5% to 99.96% of the PHP developer community (*). You're much closer to the 'elitist oligarchy' than to the masses. Another thing to get out the door is that my position is not an official Zend stand, it's my personal position. I suspect Andi would think similarly but I'm sure he'd comment when he returns, and it's quite possible he thinks differently. Not sure about what others @Zend think, contrary to popular belief it's not a military-like organization and everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and they almost always have one. php-general is just one way of coming across real world developers. The huge amount of PHP users who correspond with me directly, and that I meet throughout my course of work (suffice to say Zend has way more customers than php-general has subscribers) are an excellent way to gauge the masses. Common sense helps as well - it's not by gauging the masses, nor by listening to every idea raised on internals@ (php-dev@ back in the days) that we've made PHP so successful. The reason we're even thinking about removing register_globals is thanks to the fact we had the guts to disable it by default, an effort that I'm proud to have led. Finally, the main issue I'm going against is the 'we can now break things!' approach. I don't have a problem with all of the points Rasmus made, just some of them. And the biggest problem is the mindset of the thread that followed it. Zeev At 17:53 15/08/2005, Jochem Maas wrote:

loose comments, by no means aimed at Sara (who I happen to hold in high regard for not only here coding skills but also here general manner) Sara Golemon wrote:

You and the rest of the people on internals@ are not the masses nor do they represent them in any way. When a 'non-contributor' dares to voice an opinion, he's shut up because he's, well, a non-contributor. He's the one that matters, though, not you.

PHP doesn't need to be a true-democracy (unfocused and dismissive of the minority), nor an elitist oligarchy (insular and unresponsive to real needs).

here here. I would add that 'elitist oligarchy' is the worse end of the scale thought - right now I consider it more of a meritocracy - which is why IMHO Rasmus is king of the hill (beercan not included).

Yes, the php-general@ masses are the "voice of the people". The

it is, to me anyway, an interesting fact that Rasmus Lerdorf is the only core/dev guy/girl that is active (he posts killer stuff on a regular basis) - that is one thing that really strengthens any arguments he brings to the table IMHO, he actually talks to us mere mortals, and tries to guide us to better ways... I assume that tha ammount of stuff he reads on generals also gives him alot of insight into the 'state of the nation'. I certainly don't see any Zend guys in there getting their hands dirty and being proactive with the so called 'masses' - but Zend (I assume that Zeev's comments, in particular, can be, at least partially, construed as being conform to Zend corporate thinking regarding php development) seems to wave the 'don't upset the masses flag' quite hard.

unwashed majority of the masses want simplicity and constancy, and it's important that they be provided with such. But there's also that marginalized minority of *good* scripters out there who will ultimately outgrow PHP because it doesn't offer the level of professional internal consistency they're looking for.

I would quitely consider myself just good enough to fall in the *good* category... I see it as my responsibility to drag the 'unwashed masses' kicking and screaming to a higher skill level - because mostly I don't want to be put into a situation where I outgrow php - I love it too much. I field quite a lot of 'dumb' questions at generals@ - always with an eye to passing on good practice basics (stuff you guys recommend, etc) in so far as I am capable - there are plenty like me out there. (number on the list of things that noobs are told not to do is use register_globals and magic_quotes_gpc) personally I think its fantastic that you all are looking far ahead and trying to plan/decide/figure out where its all going - especially in such an open manner - I still think php is great, and trust it will become greater still (not just the version number ;-) Kinds Regards, Jochem Maas

It's our responsibilities, as contributors, maintainers, and those merely voicing concerns in open forum to consider all of the masses (unwashed and otherwise) when making decisions of internal focus. I appreciate that the "WishList" is long and aggressive. It's also not a binary image. Let's spread it all out on the table and compare what's good and not-so-good about it. The masses deserve that consideration. -Sara

-- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php