Fw: [PHP-DEV] Function caching...

Hello. Although Kristian and Björn have valid points, it seems to me that Zeev has been trying (repeatedly) to point out that many people use PHP for things that do not require a "full-fledged-load-balancing-clustering-whatever-app-server". I, myself, am one of those people, and IMHO think our side of the argument has been under-represented. I find PHP with (or even without) the Zend Optimizer plenty fast for my needs. Yes, PHP is currently used today for things that go require the "full-fledged-load-balancing-clustering-whatever-app-server", but that doesn't mean that PHP should be scrapped and rebuilt to meet those needs. PHP itself is, like Zeev said, good and popular because it's easy to use. The Zend Optimizer and Zend Cache are not part PHP - they are add-ons. They have little to do with ease of use, they have much to do with performance. I can understand the argument for a Zend (or some other company or individual) Application Server based on and/or integrated with PHP, but Zeev has already stated that he has "no argument with Kristian about the limitations he pointed out. [Zeev has] a serious argument with him on whether addressing these limitations should be done within the application that is called 'PHP'." What Rasmus said about Apache 2.0 sounds to me like a good start, and Kristian pointed out that "Some people in #php.de are coding at application servers written in PHP." I'm sure the day will come when I'll need a "full-fledged-load-balancing-clustering-whatever-app-server", and I'm very relieved to hear that someone (lots of someones) are working on writing one. However, I'd doubt that when it's all done, it will be called "PHP". - Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Björn Schotte" <bjoern@baer.main.de> To: "Zeev Suraski" <zeev@zend.com> Cc: <php-dev@lists.php.net> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Function caching... Hi, first of all: we do not want to kill all the small PHP developers. But we also don't want that you close your eyes on the PHP developers who want to have middle and large web applications. > >1-4.): is it only marketing blabla? > Well, mission statements are always controlled by marketing :) So you agree that you fool on people? > 1. There's no such thing as a 'real application server', because there's > no definition for an application server (don't bother coming up with a > definition, since there I can come up with 20 others which are just as good). That's right. For a first step of a definition or, let it say in another way: the needs, please read Kristians Mail again. > was talking about in his lengthy letters. It's not designed to do this, > it's designed to do something else, and it's doing that other thing very Read again: | [...] with the goals of increasing their productivity and | performance, as well as the competitive advantage of | their sites. if PHP wasn't designed to do something else, why is your company writing this (and other things) on http://www.zend.com/zend/mission.php ? > today. Employing Kristians suggestions basically mean PHP will no longer > be PHP, and while Kristian and you may be very happy, it's safe to assume > that the vast majority of users, which don't necessarily agree with > Kristian/your development rules, would be at loss. No. Opening your mind for new features (read Kristians mail again) doesn't imply that you will loose the ease of use of PHP. Only if the developer wants to use those features we mentioned, he has to use PHP in a not-so-easy way. This isn't bad. > PHP/Zend is not a commercial product. To go beyond that - there isn't even > a product by that name. But Zend Technologies sees itself as the leader of the PHP development and the PHP community. Please ask your CEO Doron Gerstel: on the PHP conference he pretended that Zend Technologies "is great, a leader in the community, a leader for web applications, [bla bla bla]". > >4.): how do they want to promot PHP as a _standard_ for dynamic > >web site development if PHP doesn't fill the needs of today's > >problems? > Just because you say it doesn't, doesn't mean it doesn't. I am the maintainer of the largest PHP portal site for the german speaking community which seems to be one of the biggest communities of the world. I organized the PHP conference. I know a _lot_ of people in various (big) companies. I _know_ their needs. I know what they _miss_ on PHP while they are fascinated because PHP is so easy to use. > The numbers > speak for themselves, and they're proving your wrong on a daily basis. Which numbers? That PHP is installed more than 4 million times? You know that quantity doesn't count but quality? Did you ever consider that it could be that PHP is only used for 08/15 applications while with really _interesting_, _not boring_ and _complex_ PHP applications you have to do a lot of workarounds/hacks? Did you ever consider that stagnation is NOT a good way to improve quality and to gain the place on the market? We don't want to kill the user base we now have, but we want that PHP fills the needs of TODAY, NOT of the PAST. > Well, you have to go back Evolution. Not Past. Not stagnation. -- Björn Schotte b.schotte@pangora.com http://rent-a-phpwizard.de/ bjoern@baer.main.de Online-Applikationen fürs E-Business. -- PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/> To unsubscribe, e-mail: php-dev-unsubscribe@lists.php.net For additional commands, e-mail: php-dev-help@lists.php.net To contact the list administrators, e-mail: php-list-admin@lists.php.net