Re: RIP PHP 4?

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote: > On Tuesday 10 July 2007, chris# wrote: > >> > Better docs on how to run PHP 4 and PHP 5 at the same time would > likely >> > be helpful, and someone is working on that for GoPHP5.org, I think. >> > However, your claim that "you have millions... of lines of code that > have >> > to be nearly >> > completely rewritten to be usable in PHP 5" is not true. Sure, you > could >> > completely rewrite your app, but unless you're doing something very > very >> > dependent on objects passing by value porting a PHP 4 app to run >> > correctly in >> > PHP 5 is not the herculean task that some make it out to be. You >> > don't /have/ to rewrite everything to use objects. Even the > procedural >> > code >> > is easier, with the extra array manipulation routines. :-) >> > >> > That sounds like more of a marketing issue. >> >> Greetings, and thanks for the response. >> For the sake of clarity; I was /not/ indicating that /I/ had millions of >> lines of code to /completely/ rewrite. But rather that there /are/ > millions >> (perhaps billions) of lines of code that need to be rewritten on the >> Internet in various applications/ libraries/classes, etc... > > Yes, I understood that you mean "there exists millions, perhaps billions > of > lines". However, I disagree with you on that point. :-) The only way > that's > possible, IMO, is if you're counting every installed copy of WordPress or > Joomla or Drupal or PHPBB or whatever separately. And of course, most of > the > widely-installed OSS apps are already quite happy on PHP 5, even if they > don't leverage its full potential. Fair enough. I have to admit, I had been up for too many hours when seeing your response, and jumped on a reply w/o giving the answer adequate thought - see; reactive. ;) I'll meet you somewhere in the middle on this one. :) > >> And for many, this seems quite - as you put it, the herculean task. >> Remember, most ppl using PHP on their pages depend on others to write > their >> pages/applications/ utilities. They go to >> sourceforge/freshmeat/phpclasses/hotscripts download something that > appeals >> to them and discover that it don't werk on the PHP5 boxen their ISP/ >> hosting provider offers. So they discover they need to fix it to make it >> work. To most - whom know very little about programming in PHP, this is >> quite a feat. So as most in the world; they take the >> least-line-of-resistance and find a PHP4 hosting provider. > > Honestly, it's 2007. Actually half way to '08 ;) > Any PHP apps that are not yet compatible with PHP 5 at > all are either (1) internal apps that exist once and never leave the > server > they're on or (2) abandoned. Now, who's overstating? > Someone could still be writing code for > them, > but if the developer hasn't even addressed PHP 5 compatibility yet then > the > application is abandoned. Again, an overstatement. But I'll venture to respond... You're overall response presupposes that everyone feels the same about PHP5 as you do - embraces it. This however, is naïeve. As PHP4 still has the largest install base. NOTE: Before anyone starts labeling/accusing me as a PHP5 hater. Let me set the record straight right now: I love /each/ version for different reasons, and will be forever grateful to the developers for it's inception/creation and continued development. I Hope this is now clear. /NOTE > Users of the application at this point should > be > looking for a replacement app anyway, independent of anything we do. Assuming that they have any intention of moving to 5. Is it not also possible that they are hoping for a solution that gives them a bridge from 4 to 5? Or hoping that 6 will fall somewhere between 4 & 5 - providing the best of both worlds? Given that they all know that PHP & Co. knows most of the PHP users aren't flocking to 5. Remember the saying; ppl will most generally always take the least line of resistance. :) > >> Bottom line; >> there are zillions of PHP thingies out there that were all written for > PHP4 >> - far more than are available for 5. So until many (most?) of them have >> been re-written (more accurately; adapted) for PHP5, PHP4 will still be > a >> /big/ contender - like it or not. > > See above. By this point they've all been adapted or abandoned. Adapting > may > be herculean for your average web surfer, but they're not the target > audience. The target market is PHP developers (for whom it is not > herculean) > or server admins (who, from what I've seen, are already moving to PHP 5 > even > if the stats end up skewed). Sure. I'll go with you where many developers are concerned. But as Admins go; I'm not convinced that they possess the same savvy that PHP developers do. Their skills are more centered around scripting, and proc management. Which is far more perl oriented that PHP - if either. It's usually bash/sh or rc (again bash/sh). Indeed. They have knowledge of PHP. But more in a general sense, than profound. > >> OH, before I forget to respond; PHP5 is a >> completely different animal than PHP4 for the average user. Sure. If you >> were familiar with Java/Script it all looks quite familiar - technically >> any OO language for that matter. Hell, I've been with PHP since it's >> creation, coming from years with perl and converting most of my trusty >> scripts to PHP. I also discovered many ways to write PHP4 as pseudo OO. >> Like many I suppose. Anyway, speaking of the past; I remember there > being >> quite bit of resistance to the OO flavor that PHP5 offered. Perhaps it >> lingers still. Well, here's looking forward to feasible solutions to >> offering multiversions on most PHP hosters. ;) > > There's still a lot of resistance to OO. There probably always will be, > regardless of language. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just one > tool > and style among many. (Now, if we can get true functional programming > ability in PHP as well, then watch the fur fly! <g>) And that's why it's > also a red-herring. One can write perfectly capable, perfectly good PHP 5 > without ever using the "class" keyword. The claim that is still repeated > that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5 > is, > quite simply, FUD. True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not inclined, or have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/ space and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got PHP4 installed. Why bother with 5 at all? [just a scenario, not my overall feeling/ point of view - I'm being a (devils)advocate here. :)] > > Oh yes, and there is no such thing as Java/Script. Java is a pure-OO > language. Javascript is a semi-functional prototype language. The only > things they have in common are their first four letters. :-) Yes. You got me. Quite right. Just axe the Script part, and read it again. :) > >> Thanks again for the response. > > Cheers. Best wishes, and thanks for taking the time to respond. > > -- > Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 > larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > possession > of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- > Thomas > Jefferson > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging! .