Re: RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)

Hrm. It seems to me that it's not just Mongo that has chosen that as a query definition language. A fair number of other projects have, too. If not as a query language, then related things. As for decoding Unicode, well, json_decode seems to do a pretty good job. And if I am not mistaken, they are always in quotation marks, so it shouldn't really be such a terrible issue to delimit as such. I am not certain about that, but, again, json_decode seems to manage. - M. -- Marcel Esser Vice President of Engineering, CROSCON +1 (202) 470-6090 marcel.esser@croscon.com Before printing this e-mail, please consider the rainforest. On 6/1/11 6:47 PM, "David Zülke" <david.zuelke@bitextender.com> wrote: >Just because the MongoDB developers were stupid enough to build a query >language on top of JSON does not mean that JSON or JavaScript object >literals need to be supported in PHP. And it wouldn't be possible anyway >since JSON allows Unicode escape sequences, and PHP cannot even represent >those as it is not aware of runtime encodings. > >Besides, outside the use case of json_decode(), stdClass is rarely ever >useful, so I don't understand why we're even discussing {} shorthands >here. It's not in the RFC either, so good job on focusing on the issue >and not diluting the discussion. > >Getting back to the RFC: I think it's problematic to have two separate >syntaxes for the key/value separator. For consistency's sake, I'd rather >just have "=>" but not ":". Just my $0.02. > >David > > >On 02.06.2011, at 00:09, John Crenshaw wrote: > >> For small linear arrays, neither format is "more readable" but for even >>mildly complex structures, there is a clear difference. Consider the >>following Mongo query: >> >> $query = array( >> 'time'=>array('$and'=>array( >> array('$gt'=>strtotime('-1 day')), >> array('$lt'=>time()), >> )), >> '$or'=>array( >> array('foo'=>'bar'), >> array('hello'=>'world') >> ) >> ); >> >> Vs. the JSON form: >> $query = { >> time: {'$and': [ >> {'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')}, >> {'$lt': time()}, >> ]}, >> '$or': [ >> {foo: 'bar'}, >> {hello: 'world'} >> ] >> }; >> >> Because of the clear readability difference I'll take anything, but >>JSON would be much better than just an "array shorthand". >> >> John Crenshaw >> Priacta, Inc. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anthony Ferrara [mailto:ircmaxell@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:18 PM >> To: PHP internals >> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux) >> >> Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong >> reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me >> to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But >> what I do care about is how readable it is. >> >> To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to >> tell me that [1, 2] is more readable/easier to understand than >> array(1,2)? To me, it's about a wash. >> >> However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example: >> >> $person = new stdClass(); >> $person->city = 'ogden'; >> $person->state = 'ut'; >> $perspn->country = 'usa'; >> $person->favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42); >> $person->somethingWithNumbers(); >> $person->unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21); >> $person->likesPhp = 'very much so'; >> >> vs >> >> $person = { 'name' => 'Justin', >> 'city' => 'ogden', >> 'state' => 'ut', >> 'country' => 'usa', >> 'favoriteNumbers' => [ 4, 12, 37, 42], >> 'unluckyNumbers' => [ 6, 13, 21], >> 'likesPhp' => 'very much so' >> } >> >> Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to >> find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax. >> >> Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is >> if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table >> here, but that's the only benefit I can see to implementing a shortcut >> for arrays (that would save 5 characters per instance). >> >> Just my $0.02... >> >> Anthony >> >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Justin Carmony >><justin@justincarmony.com> wrote: >>> To address the soapbox: >>> >>> Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when >>>you have more complex structures as well. There was already a great >>>example shown >>>(http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html) >>>of that. Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the >>>RFC), you can cut down on a lot more verbose code, especially with >>>objects. >>> >>> $person = { 'name' => 'Justin', >>> 'city' => 'ogden', >>> 'state' => 'ut', >>> 'country' => 'usa', >>> 'favoriteNumbers' => [ 4, 12, 37, 42], >>> 'unluckyNumbers' => [ 6, 13, 21], >>> 'likesPhp' => 'very much so' >>> }; >>> >>> Characters: 192 >>> >>> Current way: >>> >>> $person = new stdClass(); >>> $person->city = 'ogden'; >>> $person->state = 'ut'; >>> $person->country = 'usa'; >>> $person->favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42); >>> $person->unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21); >>> $person->likesPhp = 'very much so'; >>> >>> Characters: 229 >>> >>> That is a 37 character difference. But the real driving factor is >>>given PHP's lack of named parameter syntax, passing objects and arrays >>>(or sometimes a mix, depending on the framework) is becoming very >>>popular. So not only do you save some typing just once, but if you use >>>this pattern a lot, you save a lot of typing over your entire project. >>>Also, when dealing with objects, I have to make sure I retype "person" >>>correctly each time. If I don't, I'll get a notice error. But with the >>>new syntax, it'll throw a parsing error so I can know a lot quicker >>>what my issue is. >>> >>> As for syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, etc all being outdated, first >>>off no one is suggesting to deprecate the array() function. So you will >>>only use this new syntax if you choose to do so. Second, we broke >>>syntax highlighters, IDEs, and so forth when we introduced namespaces, >>>and every IDE and syntax highlighter I used updated very quickly to >>>support them. I'm assuming the IDEs spent a great deal more time adding >>>Namespacing support than it will to support a short syntax for arrays >>>and objects. >>> >>> PHP has made short syntax for other things, such a if statement short >>>codes. Yet many books don't cover it, since it is one of those things >>>you read in the documentation later and decide "Do I want to use this?" >>>No one is forcing anyone to use (1 == 1 ? true : false) type of if/then >>>logic. The same will work with the new syntax. >>> >>> My two cents. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Michael Shadle wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>> I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax >>>>> (or global -1) >>>> >>>> This is a good idea to group things like this. >>>> >>>> Back on the soapbox. All of this is just to reduce typing "array" (5 >>>> characters) before things? >>>> >>>> Old: >>>> $foo = array('a' => 'b', 'c' => 'd'); >>>> >>>> More than likely new: >>>> $foo = ['a' => 'b', 'c' => 'd']; >>>> >>>> 5 character difference for each array being saved. That's it. At the >>>> expense of syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, all becoming outdated and >>>> need to be updated. For a language construct that has been around for >>>> what, 10 years? >>>> >>>> Oh, and for anyone desiring a ":" for this new shorthand, why stop at >>>> array shorthand. Why not change this from: >>>> foreach($foo as $key => $val) >>>> >>>> To: >>>> foreach($foo as $key: $val) >>>> >>>> That would save one character for each array iteration like that. >>>> >>>> Also - if we're worried about saving characters and shorthand why not >>>> just remove the "$" language construct? That's a LOT of keystrokes. In >>>> my WordPress install, that's 75,412 characters saved. Versus 6,960 >>>> "array(" matches, which would save 34,800 characters. >>>> >>>> These were quick examples from a coworker. Just another PHP user who >>>> said "wait why would they make another way to express an array?" >>>> >>>> -- >>>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >>>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> >