Re: Re[4]: [PEAR-QA] Documentation..

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 01:50:14 +0200, anatoly techtonik <techtonik@php.net> wrote: > Hello Justin, > > > > >> LS> why not just open a feature request with a link to the source ... i > >> LS> doubt any developer wouldnt be happy to add the example to the distro > >> LS> after a quick look over the source. > >> > >> Because it is not a feature request and dumb users like me are either > >> too lazy to contribute to stale closed community or don't have a proper > >> amount of imagination to draw association between Feature Request > >> and Example. It can be my only IMHO, but (RFE != Example for existing > >> feature). > > JP> Stale? Closed? Are you trying to be a troll? If something hasn't been > JP> updated then point it out and it will be dealt with. QA is doing a > JP> good job trying to get maintainers for abandoned packages. *People are > JP> busy*. You have to understand that this is all done *for free*. > Let me start here by saying that you need a serious adjustment. You have no faith in others. If you have a problem, *do not* just say "it's stale so don't count on them". As I have said before, try asking why it is a certain way and having a positive discussion about how to better things instead of trolling. And, yes, even if you give a good idea it may never (or very slowly) get put into motion unless *you* are the driving force and spend some of your own time fixing things. > Stale means that there's no indication of PEAR's activity or it's > status. Stale also mean, that users can see the result of they work. > Their efforts are most of the time wasted and they can't get recognition. > Stale means that 7 voices is enough to rule another 200. Stale means, > that everybody seems to prefer to skip the problem than to solve it, > because everyb. has no time. Stale also means that there's no trust to > users. And hence no trust to developers. "No indication of activity"? Excuse me? There are new releases of packages all of the time. Commits to CVS happen all of the time. This is all easily found on the website and you can even get e-mails (the PEAR-general list gets release announcements, the CVS list gets all CVS changes). "users can see the result of they work". What users and what work? If users contribute bug reports, they *are* handled (albeit not super-quick, but again, people don't have time to be on-call for a free project). If users contribute patches it happens all the faster. The power is in your hands. "7 voices is enough to rule another 200". This is completely bogus. All of these discussions are carried out on the pear dev list and all concerns are taken seriously. You weren't around for it. Oh well, that's your loss. Just because something was passed by 7 votes doesn't mean that people did *not* want it. If people were against it, they would have voted against it. There are only 7 votes because only 7 people cared enough to vote. That's it. Stop assuming that there is a ruling elite. *THERE IS NOT*. Who is skipping problems? It is true that you have to be an experienced PEAR developer to vote. This is done to make sure that voters are well informed and are a serious part of the community. > > Closed means, that only the person who contributed package can vote and > decide that other members can or cannot do. Users can't vote on new > features, can't propose ideas, can't share code or work on web-site > improvements. They can't work on getting PEAR better at all and those > people who can are too busy to do it themselves and the worse is that > these people do not allow others to do it. Why? Nobody votes on new features...users submit a feature request and the package dev decides whether or not to add it. The developers are usually pretty welcoming of new features if they have the time to deal with it. Users who have no proposal karma can submit a proposal to the list. If they wish to create a proposal all they have to do is ask for a pearweb account. Most people are given accounts who are serious about proposing something. You may have to prove that you're serious by actually writing most of the proposal before you get the account, but this is simple accountability. How can "Users" not share code? You're encouraged to create bug reports, feature requests, and proposals which link to your own code and/or patches. *ANYONE* can submit a bug report or feature request in the bug system with *THEIR OWN* patches. I can't make that any clearer. If you have a package you want to be part of PEAR, you propose it and the community can comment on it. If what you meant is "everyone can't submit their own code without it going through the proposal system" then yes, this is true. The proposal system and coding standards are here for a reason. If you don't like it, you can post whatever you want to hotscripts or phpclasses. I'm not trying to push you away here, but it sounds like you want a free-for-all, which PEAR is not. > > Yes, I am trolling. I'd like you to think about why am I doing this > and what signal I want to get on the output. I've got a solid POV and > I want you to make me change my mind. > But also I act like a user, who doesn't ask questions. He walks > through the site, reads what he want, downloads package and leaves. > Then he returns to the site to report something, leaves a note, which > stays for months, he hasn't got an appropriate response and he will > never return back. He is not a member of community. So far I'm here > to report something. You admit that you're trolling. Trolling has no purpose. Trolling is complaining or bashing in a negative way without proposing what to do to fix things. If you want to fix things, try being constructive. Point out a shortcoming and then propose a new way. Be convincing instead of rude. If you're rude no one is going to listen. So Joe User reports something and hears nothing back. If nothing has happened, the user can ask why nothing has happened. It may be that the developer of the package hasn't had the time to deal with it. It could be that the package has been abandoned. What you do here is send a polite note to the package maintainers and the pear-dev (or users) list asking if anyone knows what's up. In the past you could get nothing back. *Now* we have QA which will handle such things by either fixing things themselves or appointing a new lead for the package to do it. We know we had this problem in the past. This is what QA is for. They are still working out the details, it's a very new group. > > JP> This e-mail wasn't meant as a personal attack. Lukas suggested that > JP> you create a bug report with the example. It's the best place to put > JP> things like this. He was informing you, not criticising you. > > His solution resembles a temporary stub for this "special case". It > seems like an intention to skip nuisance. I just wanted to inform, that > RFE is not a proper place for such Examples. I like critique and in > fact every my letter is it, because I can't do anything except > critisize (if you have already noted, I'm not a developer). Letters, > what can't help or doesn't contain any good ideas are spam. If any of > my letters is nonsense - point it. Even if after all my intentions are > not clear just ask me to leave and I will not return here. Perhaps > I'll post a patch or two, but this will be all I can do for yours. It may not be the perfect place for examples, but there is nowhere else to put it now. You can e-mail the example to the maintainer. This is the best way. If there is no response, make an RFE so that it doesn't get lost. In the future we will have user comments and you can put it there. > > Just ask and do not add me to spam filters. Again. > -- Justin Patrin