Re: removal of this list

David, I am not out to "get" you or anyone else. As I said originally, I am very much in favor of more inter-project cooperation and standards. However, consider the redux of the conversation to date: <a small group of people> We have a new standard for all PHP code! <various other people> WTF? <small group> No more commenting, it's set in stone. <others> OMGWTFBBQ! <small group> Actually no, it's just for our projects and the rest of the PHP world can decide if they care. But we want to be open, really! <someone> They're gone, they've moved to another list to talk without us. *others look around in confusion. <others> Wha, who, where? It's already been admitted that the announcement was not handled as well as it could have been. I think we all agree on that. However, can you see how moving off list to "regroup" (which I do not think is a bad thing) without telling anyone that could lead to a "once bitten twice as cautious" wtf response? I probably could have found the Google group if I'd been actively searching for it to see if the original group moved elsewhere. It didn't occur to me to do so, because I am not, in fact, trying to stalk you or anyone else. We're not at "war" with you either. On Thursday 11 June 2009 3:52:37 am David Coallier wrote: > Ok I'll try to give a bit more insight on "why" we went to a private > list and what we are doing at the moment. > > Hannes and Larry, please get off our horses, we are not trying to find > a way to dodge the community or a way to neglect the community input, > instead what we are trying to do by moving to the other list is get > productive and regroup as Nate said. > > What we mean by re-grouping is trying to find a solution to be more > open to the community whilst channeling all the anger and ego crushing > that could have happened since we started that list. > > There is a great amount of talent and intelligence in the community > and we wouldn't want to miss on that. What we are doing now is simply > organizing our message better, coming with a new approach to how to > involve the community in a way that it'd be both fun and productive > and also get some standards out. > > Larry, comments like: > "*checks back in his mail archive* Um, when was this announced? If it's > not private, what's the url so that interested parties can join it and > participate before another "decision" is reached?" > > Is a reason why open mailing lists are often disruptive and > unproductive. Hannes outlined the fact that we went to google group, > this decision of moving was taken by people who are moving and are > trying to make this as easy for all parties. For the moment we > considered that it may be of better interest to simply get our message > clearer, our approach polished and making sure the community is > involved. If you would have google'd for: "google php standards" or > read the blog posts or followed phpdeveloper.org you would have seen > something about it. > > We are not in a "war" against everyone here, we simply regrouped so we > can come with a better message or a better name that would convey our > messages in a better way. We are not trying to impede on PHP's > gracious history of community building but are trying to get to a > point where we can come back on the list, with something along the > lines of an RFC or something similar where everyone will be able to > take a look and discuss what they think. > > Once again Hannes AND Larry, we aren't there to "get" you, we are > simply trying something that hasn't been done in PHP before and in > order to achieve that monstrous huge step, we need to make sure our > message and ideas are clear and this will give the ability to the > community (even to the ones that want to complain without the > slightest idea why) to decide whether they like it or not. > > Anyways, hope that you don't see our re-grouping as a caucus to world > domination but more like productive manner of coming back to you with > a much clearer, open approach (.. and so you can complain more :P). > > > > -- > Slan, > David -- Larry Garfield larry@garfieldtech.com