Re: annotations again

Hi Rasmus, On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Rasmus Lerdorf <rasmus@lerdorf.com> wrote: > On 05/11/2011 01:39 AM, dukeofgaming wrote: >> >> The link doesn't work, but I'm assuming it is this one?: >> https://wiki.php.net/todo > > That was supposed to be wiki.php.net/rfc (iPad auto-correct messed it up) > >> In other words, the ideal situation to move this particular case forward >> is to have more stakeholders join the discussion, right?. An issue that >> I see here is that it is not that easy to join in the discussion because: > > I don't think we need to lower the participation bar further here. It > doesn't take very long to find a threaded version of the list if that is > what you think is holding people back. All the lists are here, > http://php.markmail.org/search/ for example. > > But honestly, subscribing to a mailing list and watching it for a while > before participating is not too much to ask from people who want to > participate. > >> My suggestion for this —and it would be a rather disruptive one, I know— >> is to move the lists to Google Groups, or at least create one or two as >> an experiment, say: php-userland and php-dev. > > We have such a user list already. Many of them actually, but the main one is > php-general. Again, refer to the above link where you can see that > php-general gets way more traffic than the internals list, so there is no > lack of participation there. > >> BTW, Guilherme is an important stakeholder too, he has participated in >> Doctrine2 annotation-related work: > > Of course he is. But like I said, we need all the major stakeholders to > reach some sort of agreement on large efforts like this. > The only point that I see here is that none of them heavily rely on this feature. Doctrine/Symfony relies a lot on it, and requires special treatment that key => value support is not enough. Please check out these pages for reference: Doctrine 2 Association mapping: http://www.doctrine-project.org/docs/orm/2.0/en/reference/association-mapping.html#mapping-defaults Symfony 2 Validation mapping (click on Annotations tab): http://symfony.com/doc/current/book/validation.html#constraint-configuration That's the point that I'd like to illustrate. PHP still lack of standardization in so many places. That's why I took the most complete approach that could fit in every library I've looked at. All I just don't want is to implement a docblock solution that in next major becomes a separate thing as happened to Java. My first patch (and I dunno if you remember) was around 80% compatible with JSR-250, which was carefully planned and discussed by Java folks. Of course it was a different implementation, without extra burden and with the inclusion of other powerful artifacts. Now I'm going to release another RFC for Annotations within docblocks, but I would really hope that you understand the needs of complex support instead of a key/value one. >> The way I see it, PHP has moved by inertia all these years, and it has >> worked, but I think there are measures that could be taken to lead the >> discussions towards a more productive path. For example, is there anyone >> at all that does some kind of moderation?, and I don't mean the coercive >> type, but the "hey guys, this seems off-topic, can you start this >> discussion on another email thread?" type of moderation. > > Of course. I've often sent private emails to people to politely suggest they > take things offline and others regularly step in as well. > > -Rasmus > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Guilherme Blanco Mobile: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil