Re: Re: [metabase-dev] MDB news

Hello Manuel, * Manuel Lemos wrote: > > What are you doing for the benefit of PHP? And please > I don't have to prove myself. Either you see me with good faith or there What gives you the impression that I don't see you with good faith? (To give you some positive statement: I liked the discussion on PHP-DEV about SOAP/Web Services some months ago. I liked your postings, but only one part of them: the fact that you see SOAP/web services as an important thing. Nevertheless I didn't like the tone of your mails.) > > don't tell me about phpclasses. > And what is it really your problem against PHP Classes site? Nothing. > have decided on their own to exclude themselves from participating in > it. It is their choice, so it is their problem. Yep. And the same is for those developers who don't like the PEAR coding standard and so they exclude themselves from participating in it. It is their choice, so it is their problem. > Just one example: recently I offered to advertise at not cost the > PHP-Con conference that is going to be held in the US soon. I believe > that it is an important event for the PHP community in North America and > the improvement of PHP credibility world wide. I don't know if that > will help much, but I figure that 500,000 full banner views may help > leading some attendants more to the conference. Yep. > Oddly I did not get a response from you. I receive more than 600 mails per day (which mostly I have to read and most things, like PHP-CVS, have to scan to be up-to-date) and I am involved in some non-commercial projects, in some commercial projects that are regularly (PHP Conference, PHP Magazin), some projects that are non-commercial and that have nothing to do with PHP (that's because I am self-employed, i.e. self-marketing, publishing my newsletter etc.etc.) and then (surprise!) I have to earn money with other commercial projects. And (surprise again!) I also have some private life. So ... > Either you did not notice the ... I didn't have the time to answer you. And as told in another mail, you don't need special permission from me to promote the PHP Conference. If you need something like a banner, please contact Frank Stepan <fstepan@entwickler.com>. He'll send it to you. > This offer preceeded by far your questioning of what I have done for PHP > , so you can't tell me that I am not doing nothing, or at least I do not > try. Why do you have the impression that I think that you are doing nothing? I didn't say that, if you remember. I only asked. > > (and "PEAR elitists" _is_ aggressive) may be funny (usually I > If you think it is aggressive, you missed my point. Maybe being an > elitist means something else in your mind than in mine. I refer to the tone. If somebody wants to be heard by somebody, he has to adapt to a factual tone. > My point is to provide feedback about the way people are seeing PEAR. If > you think that is just me, go and read the comp.lang.php thread about > why people do not want to use PEAR. I intentionally excluded myself from I have read this thread and loughed out loudly. | 1) I had to bring in a whole slew of other classes (for error handling, etc.) in | order to use the mail class, and use a different coding style that I did not | have time for. <alqf2s$7ief$1@ID-156870.news.dfncis.de> Yeah, a real professional user. He doesn't have "time" to dig into the _use_ of the PEAR classes (on the other side, you need to bring time with you if you want to *commit* PEAR classes, but this user wanted to _use_ PEAR classes). Also, he obviously hasn't seen some bigger OO projects/frameworks where one class relies to another, i.e. as PHPLib Auth class does (relying on PHPLIB::Session, PHPLIB::DB and PHPLIB:CT_* class) In the same posting: | 2) The documentation was skimpy, and what there was was buggy. Yippieh. Proving through alleging? | Now that you mention it I do remember that the PEAR MIME class was also | based on his work. Sort of a sad commentary on PEAR that it takes good work | and makes it hard to use by forcing you in a direction where you don't want | to go, or where it takes too much time to learn to go, or both. <alrjab$elo4$1@ID-156870.news.dfncis.de> The next professional user. Why does he think that he's the navel of the world and everything else has to follow _his_ style? Reality is bottom-up: if _you want to use_ another thing, you have to adapt to the thing's style, and not the other way round. | If PEAR opened up and became more CPAN like it would gain | mind share and leave companies like Zend to produce the coordinated | class libraries. PHP will need these to span web development from | guestbooks to enterprise applications. <alu23s$qdt$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk> Can't agree to this. For me, there's no link from enterprise applications to "PEAR being something like CPAN". He argues that PHP needs a "PEAR being something like CPAN with Zend producing coordinated class libs" to enter the enterprise market. Obviously he doesn't know that PHP already entered the enterprise market. I am using PHPLIB::DB because I am used to it, it's easy to use and PEAR::DB seems to be slower today (may change with ZE2), but I don't shoot against PEAR (except for the two _ironic_ postings in the thread with Sebastian Bergmann at de.comp.lang.php :-). > > like those things), but it's not true thinking using these words > > will change anything in the heads of the developers. > I would not be that sure. Then prove it. > > To be honest, I have sometimes the impression that you're looking > > up for the greatest acceptance of phpclasses and not of PHP itself. ;-) > How come that it is a problem for you? If that was named JavaClasses or Why do you think that it is a problem for me? Are you so much suffering from a persecution mania that you always try to lay words into my mouth that I haven't written? I only said that I have the *impression* that you *tend* to see phpclasses as the navel of the world. It is not a problem for me, since I can ignore it and I or my dayly life don't suffer from it. But the impression stands out. > Professional developers abide to rules of the company they work for. > However PEAR is not a company Yep. > and developers do not have change their > style to be able to contribute for free. Yep. So they only have one choice: they don't contribute their work to PEAR. They made a choice, it's their problem. > Demanding people to bend and > become less productive to be allowed to contribute is a very ungrateful > posture. I don't think so. Also you may not forget that the "PEAR el3333333t" is very helpful. I can remember Martin Jansen helping me commiting the PEARifyed PHPLIB Template class (thanks Martin!) some months ago. So I don't think the "PEAR el3333333t" is trying to keep people out. > You make it sound as if developers have the duty to conform to rules > that they are not paid to work by, as if they are obligated to > contribute. Since they are not obligated to contribute at all, obviously > you will see a lot of qualified developers refusing to contribute. So what? Is this the problem of PEAR? No. > - The rules were defined by a small number of people: an elite. If I remember right (please correct me, list members), those rules were discussed on this list. This list is open to the public. So everybody who _wanted_ to influence the process of creating the coding styles had the opportunity to do so. 1.) It's always easy to criticise things _after_ they were created. 2.) It's more productive (and it's harder so that may be the reason why people like you are preferring 1.) to criticise things during the _process of creation_. > - The rules were not subject of approval by any democratic process. The democratic process was the discussion on this list. In my opinion, having Usenet rules (for example) like RfD/CfV would be overblown. > - The rules serve the purposes that those few that defined them in the > sense that they effectively exclude other developers that could > contribute with superior packages that would make obsolete other I can repeat myself again: everyone who decides not to contribute to PEAR has made a choice. That's okay. But that's the problem of the developer and not for PEAR. If some rules have to be re-thought, I trust the "PEAR el3333333t" will do that. I think the same would be okay for phpclasses, wouldn't it? So if somebody would refuse to contribute to phpclasses for reason X and Y, you would also say "That's okay. You made a choice not contributing to phpclasses. It's your problem, not the problem of phpclasses", wouldn't you? Björn.