Re: Re: Protect PHP coding

Hello, On 08/04/2002 04:34 PM, Maxim Maletsky wrote:

so is the opinion of many other PHP users. The problem is not being commercial, the problem is being expensive.

This is true, but I think they know it. Their main customers are ready to pay those prices, so what's the problem? They've just chosen this business model for themselves.

That is fine for me, but if their prices are high why you promoting their business against free alternatives? That is the key point of this thread and why Zend was brought into the discussion.

There is really a lot of money involved in developments. If, by some means, I would need to hide a source, I would look at my business

model,

and, if I got extra $3.000 budgeted to spend on development I will

spend

them for Zend Encoder instead of resorting to Open Source protecting solutions. Because, the product to protect my intellectual property would be chosen by the responsibility of its manufacture.

Maxim, be serious, you do not have to pay that sort of money to

compile

programs in other languages, why do you keep forcing the excuse to pay that fortune to Zend?

$3.000 is a lot of money? For middle-range site maybe, but for big projects it is not. In fact, when you get to use Java or ASP.NET you, over all, will end up paying Waaaaay more money for the whole thing.

I don't know (or care) about ASP.NET, but you can compile Java programs for free. There are even free Java to C compilers. Either you don't know about these free solutions or are using that same silly argument of Microsof that the TCO of using Linux is higher than using Windows.

I am sure that many of us are not idiots to pay that fortune to Zend, especially now when have free alternatives.

Now, here we're close to the point. Ideally, it should have both - commercial software and open source alternatives. Learning from Microsoft experience, lots of projects prefer commercial solutions. This way, having Zend doing it, we can compete. Otherwise, how on the earth MS with ASP would exist?

We? I do not identify myself or my goals with Zend's. Even PHP and Zend are completely different things. Anyway, Zend is not doing intentionally many things that I think they should do. So, I really do not have to simpathize with their decisions.

Sure, mine and of many others. I also think it is stupid to exclude

Acer

because he has different opinions than yours.

Manuel, read the whole thread well. Acer have insulted PHP community. It was not about his ideas, but rather about the way he put them like.

That is even more stupid because basically you are killing the messenger just because he did not bring you only the good news . Many of his ideas are plain right regardless how he may have exposed them. It seems that some people just feel that the only right thing to do is to s*ck for Zend and do not want to admit any criticisms.

Anyway, do you agree that Zeev is right by boycotting APC people to contribute with they cache extension? If you do, you are just

defending

their monopoly, and so I do not have nothing else to say to you.

Neither I know well this story. But, if the things went the ay you say

This is public. Just dig in php-dev archives and see for yourself before Zeev comes along again throwing sand to everybody's eyes stating that I am only talking about half-truths.

then this is not very nice. Guess, soon or later it will change.

Why do you think that will happen? Basically all core members of the PHP group have been passively quiet. There is a saying that states that those that remain quite are admiting it. In this case it means that the whole core PHP group that could do anything about it is just passively allowing that Zend people does not have wide spread Open Source alternatives to they comercial products, basically favouring their business. People that behave like that have no moral to contest Microsoft business practices.

However, free solutions can always become patches and be available to people. So the problem becomes only somewhat like "should we add it or should we not". Yet it is available.

There are free solutions that are not widespread because they are not very well know. I have asked them before and the authors of the 3 free PHP cache extensions (APC, PHPA and BWare) are willing to contribute with their code. One of them (APC) even stepped up and offered his code in the PHP-DEV mailing list. Only Zeev opposed. The remaining PHP group core members just remained quite. Doesn't it look like they are supporting Zeev boycott?

Do you work for Zend? I'm sorry but it surely looks like you do

because

you are trying are to make them look good.

No, I never worked for them. When working in Tokyo's largest English IT publication we have met Zend on behalf of my ex-company. Besides that I only had PHP Beginner affiliated with Zend a year ago, but even that is over now. All I am trying to say, that, Zend plays a big role in PHP development. I, personally, do not mind about their pricing because I am not running any projects that need their services. I, just as you would, would get the alternatives whenever cannot afford their pricings. Actually, I would not buy Encoder even if it would cost $5 because I whether do it all with Open Source or plan the budget and pay. $3.000 is a lot for a simple project, but it is doable for an ASP (Application Service Providers), so let's let Zend live - we need it.

I don't have a problem with Zend business as long as they don't stand in front of PHP development. PHP needs free caching and compiling alternatives because not everybody can afford Zend prices. While that does not happen, PHP development will be stuck due to Zend business interests.

One more though - I believe, that, even if encoder will be added to every PHP distribution, Zend will still be selling encoder because it would be able to support it as an entity. That's how a lot of businesses think.

That is one more reason to not boycott the integration of the free alternatives in PHP, but it seems has the PHP groups under absolute control. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos