Re: Re: Protect PHP coding

Hello, On 08/04/2002 09:51 PM, Maxim Maletsky wrote:

If you really need evidence I am presenting you now the message where Zeev admits that he banned my address without prior consultation of other PHP developers. Just on minor correction, the message was not posted to PHP-DEV but rather copied to the PHP group. Because of my mistake, now I realize I still some people don't see the power abusing dictator that Zeev Suraski is. Just a few comments. You may also want to read this message from Stig Bakken apologising in the name of PHP Group for the mistake that Zeev made even before he was aware that it was actually Zeev that did it.

http://news.php.net/article.php?group=php.dev&article=%3C1012914625.3227 2.

19.camel%40blackbush.trondheim.fast.no%3E

I also found Sterling missing you adding some of your "best" posts. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=manuel+group:mailing.www.php-dev&hl=en &lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=a3v4fd%2429ct%241%40FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw&rnum=1

Yes and Sterling is one of a few PHP developers that suffer from deep envy of my work with PHP Classes site. For many years I have been recommending people to use components that are ready to use from the PHP Classes site that solve the problems that they present. However Sterling (and others) do no stand the fact that I recommend PHP Classes components a lot. As you may read in this post, Sterling shows his envy and calls SPAM to the recommendations that make to users to use classes from the PHP Classes site, a site that the PHP group does not control but has a tremedous success. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3C5C958B.EF611C69%40acm.org&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DSterling%2BHughes%2Bgroup:php.general%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3C5C958B.EF611C69%2540acm.org%26rnum%3D3 Since Sterling did not like my reply to this thread, he went whining to Zeev threatning to leave the PHP development team. For Zeev that was the perfect excuse to ban from PHP-DEV, a completely different list, because Zeev was not liking that I was encouraging other developers to work on a single Open Source compiler/cache extension. So, I think now you understand why Sterling was so excited with the ban. In that case you can see clearly that was a revenge from Sterling that worked because it was convinient for Zeev business. But don't think that ended already. Once in while I have to put up with other whinners that don't like that I recommend PHP Classes site components to people. I am already conformed with the fact that something that is reasonable successful like the PHP Classes is always subject of envy from unsuspected people like the Sterlings of the world. Now, you tell me: is PHP Classes site a bad thing for the PHP community? What is it so wrong that I recommend people to use the site components? I am not making them use the site, just recommending. The site has about 75,000 subscribers. Could all those subscribers be wrong?

One thing I noticed reading your emails was how you were representing your thoughts. Sorry for saying that, but you often sounded mean, and, as everywhere else, lack of self-moderation can cause rush reactions from "above". It is yet not clear to me whether you were "right but mean", or you were "wrong but persistent" - only 1 of 10 discussions you participated in excluded aggressiveness while defending your points of view. Frankly saying, I think you should be more acceptive when your proposals get denied (for whatever reasons).

You need look close and understand that my position is defensive. My reactions have to do with the previous postings addressed to me. Often I present suggestions that are refuted with ridiculous arguments. When such arguments get really hostile, hey, I have to defend myself. What do yod do when somebody steps on your foon on purposed? Do you say: thank you for stepping on my foot, sorry to have put my foot and yours? I don't think so. I could bring you a pile of suggestions refuted with ridiculous arguments, but you'd better dig the archives and see for yourself. Often the suggestions are refuted in that moment, but some time later they end up being implemented as if it was the next best thing and nobody thought of that before. Oh, it is really ridiculous but it is a fact.

I also regret that the PHP Group has to be dragged by the dirt that

Zeev

has been creating, but the truth is that they are passively allowing Zeev to do whatever he wants even without prior consultation. I am afraid that while they don't get rid of the stain that is Zeev's act they will always suffer from passively supporting him.

My reason to support Zeev is nothing else but the respect for his contribution to PHP. PHP, besides being my language of choice and many years passion also fits my upcoming family. I find it sad hearing saying you that about Zeev.

Sure, Zeev should stick to coding and that's all. He only got into the dirt when he started Zend as a business. As somebody said before, mixing business with Open Source sometimes is not a good idea. Zeev just shows that, despite it would not have to be that way.

As you may see in this message you may notice that while Zeev first appologises to the group, right after he insults the intelligence of

all

the members of the PHP group stating that he has the whole right to

ban

whoever he wants without prior consultation. This means basically that the whole PHP Groups "obeys and shut up" before Zeev Suraski command.

It

is very sad that the whole Open Source spirit of cooperation and

respect

is being wasted by the "dictator" Zeev Suraski. :-(

If you say that Zeev is a dictator then, you know, we are not judges

Maxim, this is not a matter of my opinion. You asked for evidence and I showed you the message where Zeev confesses that he banned an individual without asking to anybody in the PHP Group. Since I even got an apology from another PHP Group member that showed that he did not accepted that attitude from Zeev, do you still have doubts that Zeev is a dictactor that imposes himself to any other member of the group?

here... I still think it is your own opinion and will not try to prove you wrong, it is what 599 other developers should do. So, if this is

Maxim, that number is wrong. The PHP Group is made of 9 people as you may see here: http://www.php.net/credits.php . These are the people that are really in charge. The opinions of the remaining 590 users that have CVS hardly matter if these people do not agree. Not that is any relevant, but I am one of those 590 users with CVS accounts. The 600 developers argument is a convinient marketoid argument that some developers use to try to impress people that are really not aware what the numbers mean. It is pretty much like those NetCraft statistics that hardly express a realistic number of actual developers that use PHP. It is good to feed the so called especialized press that most of the times just repeat statements often without ability to verify their accuracy.

that important to you, then get lots of proves and fight yourself against Zeev. Regardless the result of your fight, I will still be contributing and praising PHP along with its all key developers for as long as I program in it.

Nobody said that you should. Nobody said that you should leave the farm just because Zeev is the black sheep.

I am sorry, Manuel, but with all my respect to you - I personally see this thread as your personal disagreement with the project's management based on the experience you had. And, I'd like to stop it at this very point.

No problem for me. Keep in mind that I just followed your messages. You questioned my honesty and asked for evidence to back my statements. It seems that despite I demonstrated that my statements are based on truthful facts, you still don't like that I make such statements. That is what I told you before, you are just shooting the messenger. Like Acer mentioned, you are choosing to stick your head in the sand, so that should be only your problem.

P.S: I think the only relevant topic remained is whether PHP can include these extensions for caching and compiling source files. That is what we all are for on this mailing list. (actually, even not this one)

Yes, that was the departure subject. The issues with Zeev are just a reminder that PHP does not come with a built-in cache/compiler extension because Zeev is boycotting it as he has his business to protect despite some PHP developers tried to convince that PHP and Zend are distinct when in practice that is not what we see. Anyway, despite the silly objections to include APC in PHP, APC code is part of PHP repository as a PECL extension. It is not yet in the shape it should be but it will get there. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos